Discussion on Faith with Lisa Bartel

This exchange with my cousin Lisa began after I recieved an email from her telling the story of how two people were reunited after a very long time period and that god was responsible for their reunification.

To Lisa - from Anton

Not to ruin your story as it is truly wonderful when people are reunited but can i safely assume that all the people who get seperated from their loved ones and never do get reunited, and then die wondering whatever happened to their long lost loved ones, that it is gods malevalence as he chooses not to bring them together.

simply put, you cannot thank god for reuniting loved ones, when god leaves so many other wonderful people seperated.

Anton

To Anton From Lisa

So many things to say to your response…let’s see…

1. Since those who believe in the Christian God believe he is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, they can see God’s work whether or not they are reunited with their loved ones here on Earth. Those who choose not to believe in the Christian God, such as you, are not going to see God’s work in anything.
2. If the person searching for the reunion and the missing person are both believers in the Christian God, then both should believe that they will be reunited in the heavenly kingdom whether or not they are reunited on earth.
3. The Christian God is a loving and compassionate God but that does not necessarily mean that what we believe should happen is right for us or is going to happen. As Catholic Christians, we believe we have a gift from him called free will, which you, Anton, exercise quite well in your outspokenness against him. Therefore, we can choose a path which leads us either closer to him or further away from him. He is the constant. It is we who create the dissonance, not God’s malevolence, because he has none.
4. As a Christian, we are called to give thanks for the blessings in our lives, whether it is for the reunion or the lessons we learn from separation. In all things, we are to give thanks and praise.

Merry Christmas.
Lisa


To lisa From Anton

merry christmas!!

but you still didn't answer the basic question. how do we know it is a good god reuniting people rather than an evil god keeping people apart??? and you cant answer by simply saying that you "know "god is good because someone else can simply say the opposite. without evidence what you say is worthless, actually is is worse than worthless, it is decieving.

Anton

To Anton…From Lisa

You will never know. Sad to say, but since you have not allowed yourself to have faith in anything, you will never know God is good. For that is what faith is…believing in something that cannot be proven. I know my mother loves me because I believe she does. She cannot prove it to me through words or deeds because love is an intangible thing, just like faith. You are correct in that you can say the opposite, but that brings us to the next point.

I do take exception to your statement that what I say is “worse than worthless, it is deceiving” because what I have to say has no more or less merit than what you have to say and it is no more or less deceiving than your statements. No one’s opinions or beliefs are “worse than worthless.” As a human being, we all have worth, whether or not you believe in a higher power. It always amazes me how those who profess to be so “openminded” and open to “conversing…despite our differing positions” immediately shoot down others who have chosen to have a faith in something greater than ourselves. What makes me deceiving when my chosen beliefs lead me to a life where I try, though I may not always succeed, to be caring, compassionate, considerate of others, loving, open to “conversing…despite differing positions,” and in general try to be a good person? Is it because I have chosen, through my own free will, to place some of my trust in a being that I cannot see? No, that would just make me a fool if I am not right, but it does not make me deceitful.

Lisa


To Lisa - from Anton

The person of "faith" has an obligation. That obligation is to show why they have faith and what evidence they may have for such an extraordinary claim. For example, you may have faith that jesus is divine, but without evidence your faith is like grabbing onto the blowing wind. Your faith in Jesus is equivalent to anothers faith in Allah, or Zeus, or even the folks of Heavensgate who believed a flying saucer would take them home one day. Many of those misguided people were just as intelligent, just as good, and just as committed to their faith as you are to yours.

If I was to ask a believer in each faith mentioned above to convince me of the truth of their particular faith how would they try and convince me. They would probably say things like, i had an experience, or, its always been true, or everyone i know has faith, or similar arguments. Regretfully, there is no verifiable evidence they can bring to bear because I have yet to see any such evidence shown to exist. Therefore, i would have to reject all their arguments as one was just as unlikely as another and certainly they all cannot be true as they are not complementary.

Most people of faith simply accept the faith or their parents, or their tribe, or their culture without questioning. People of faith are like children being instructed to not run into the street even though they have no concept yet of the damage a vehicle can do. We are biologically programmed to accept the ideas and commands of our parents and elders and in doing so we come to be committed followers of the family religion. This predisposition to accept what we are told when we are children can be essential for our survival but many of the things we learn as children do not go on to help us as adults.

I reject faith in anything without a reasonable amount of evidence to support that viewpoint. When a theist claims to have faith in something so extraordinary as the creator of the universe and its ongoing supernatural maintenance we should demand of that theist that they show extraordinary evidence for their claim. If their evidence does not exist or is simply "blowing in the wind" we should reject their theistic viewpoint out of hand.

Lisa, simply put. convince me with reason and evidence or be prepared to have your theistic viewpoint rejected. I actually wish you success in this endeavour,

Anton

Many Thanks to Lisa Bartel for allowing me to post her comments

December 25 - a Secular Holiday

I choose to celebrate my family, both those close and far, on this secular holiday. I say secular because my celebration does not include any reference to supernatural or theistic events and beliefs.

There is nothing more important to me than the love that binds my family members together. December 25 has always been a day where that love is exhibited, grown, and celebrated. Yes, this day was chosen as a day of celebration many years ago by christians, and before them believers in mithras, and before them various pagans celebrating the solstice. For the same reason as others took this day from prior cultures I choose this day because it is an important time of the natural world and just as importantly includes the added benefit of many others already celebrating in various ways.

I would ask each person today - why are you celebrating? Yes, there will be theistic answers, but there will also be answers which center on love and bringing the family together. I suggest that most people have both reasons, but, if one had to choose between god and family the vast majority would be quick to choose FAMILY.

I know this is an inoperative hypothetical but it is instructive especially for christians. After all, wasn't it jesus who said

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. "
Luke 14:26

So I say, I love my father and mother, my wife and children, my brothers and sisters, i love my own life so I CANNOT be your disciple.!!!

Anton

Longest Party Ever

While this years Winter Solstice/Christmas/Holiday party did not set any records for total attendance it did set the record for longest party ever.

The first folks arrived at 1130am while the last group did not leave until 1am - for a total party duration of 13.5 hours. Peak attendance was about 4pm and the total number who joined us was approximately 160.

The snowy weather certainly added to the atmosphere although the ice and sleet did keep a few people home. We will certainly expect them next year!!

Sadly the Jets lost to Seattle, but the Giants did pull out a win in overtime ( best the spread too).

thanks again to everyone who joined us and Happy New Year.


Anton

Happy Winter Solstice

Well, the big holiday party is today. How many will attend?? Will the weather hold down the numbers? We will surely see.

So, is this really a Winter solstice party or is it a christmas party, or a holiday party, or is it just Mithras birthday.??

Well our material world and consumerism has certainly turned this into the "holiday" season. Nothing specific, or offending , just the general "holiday" season.

Before that we all knew it as the "Christmas" season or just Christmas. But given that the early church fathers or as i call them "mothers" never knew when Jesus was born they decided upon Dec 25 or the birthday of the god Mithras. What better way to help the church grow.

Now, the people who worshipped mithras actually did not know either when Mithras was born so they selected a time of year coinciding with the Winter Solstice, a celestial time, as well as a time of year for awe, celebration, feasting, and renewal. Again, a promotional effort.

Now, the people before Jesus and Mithras, lets just call them good natured "environmental" pagans had always celebrated great feasts at the time of the solstice. After all, the duration of daylight was of critical importance for agriculture, calendar planning, and celestial observation. This holiday period back before "modern" religion was a truly functional event critical to the success of their society. Now, I am not saying those pagans werent religious as they were some pretty crazy folk. But, at least as far as holidays centered around the solstice go, they had the first and best case.

So to all you Mithrists, and Christians out there - find another time of year to do your thing!!!