My response to Rabbi Gellman is below his letter to Madoff
Rabbi Marc Gellman is a well-known Rabbi from New York who is one half of the famous GOD SQUAD along with Father Tom Hartman. He is the author of this letter.
A Letter To Madoff.
Measuring the toll of the disgraced financier.
By Rabbi Marc Gellman
Dear Bernie Madoff:
I don't think you know what you have done.
Life inevitably inflicts upon us different kinds of wounds. Very few people can live connected lives and not occasionally fail those who depend upon them and trust them. However, these are failures not betrayals. They come from trying to do the right thing and not being able to do it. A betrayal is different than a failure. A betrayal is an intentional wounding. It is born of cruelty, not ignorance. Most of us know of failures and betrayals. What you have done, however, is to radically expand the scope and viciousness of betrayal. You betrayed not just your friends, but your closest friends. You betrayed the trust of those who entrusted you with everything they had saved. You betrayed charities whose good works you have extinguished in an afternoon. These betrayals are epic in their scope and dazzling in their utter lack of remorse or responsibility.
There must be some new word invented to describe the way you have redefined betrayal. The Bible calls such things a toevah, "an abomination". It means an act so alien to our values and our natures that it cannot be understood or explained. You have committed an abomination. This is what you have done.
Another thing you did was make life incredibly more difficult for people who sell real and honorable and legitimate money products. Now every stock broker and money manager and hedge-fund operator and insurance rep who has already had a tough time convincing prospective clients that what they are selling is good and honest must now also convince them that they are not like you. An entire world economy we now know is based to an immense degree on simple trust, and you have done more than any single person to destroy that trust. You are a financial terrorist. Your attack has toppled the foundations of trust in our financial markets. Although you are not by any means the only financial terrorist, you are its most reviled attacker. What have brought us down are not worthless financial instruments, but worthless people. Many business people have always known and have never forgotten that trust is all the collateral they have ever placed against a loan. Your name is on people's lips now, but the ones out there selling honest products at a fair price ought to push your name into the gutter where it belongs. This is what you have done.
One of the very worst things you did has to do with the Jews. You are responsible for reviving the "Jew game." I heard of the Jew game from a boy who became a man last Saturday. I asked him once if he had ever experienced anti-Semitism in school. That is when he looked at the floor and told me about the Jew game. The game, played by anti-Semitic kids in school, was one in which they would hide around a corner, throw a quarter down the hall, and then when somebody picked up the quarter, they'd run at the person, shouting, "You're the Jew!"
You did not cause the anti-Semitic insults about Jews and money, but you caused them to be revived. Not since Julius Rosenberg spied for the Soviet Union has one person so damaged the image and the self-respect of American Jews. I am not comfortable with the fact that so many of the articles about you specifically identify your prominent place in the Jewish community. Ken Lay of Enron shame was never identified as a "prominent Protestant energy broker." The most aggressive accusers of the governor of Illinois seldom describe him as "the prominent Serbian-American governor of Illinois." Yes, it is unfair that your Jewishness has become part of the storyline. But you just reminded the bigots who grew up playing the Jew game that it still strikes a familiar chord. You wiped out Joe Lieberman's accomplishments. You revived ancient bigotry against our people. You gave credence to the horrid accusations about Jews being untrustworthy and greedy. One offensive paper has a column called "Jews in the News," which focuses on some Jewish criminal or other to remind their sickening readers of the legitimacy of anti-Semitism. You are not just one of the "Jews in the news" they seek. You are the apotheosis of their hate-filled world. You have given the Jew-haters material for a decade of hate gardening. You single-handedly revived the Jew game. This is what you have done.
Most of those you've deceived will learn to live and give in new and perhaps more modest ways. Unlike your evil, which has been stopped, nothing will stop their courage and compassion. Some of your victims will no doubt be more severely wounded in circumstance and in spirit, but none of them, I pray, will surrender to your assault. Their friends will not leave them. Their children and grandchildren will not refuse to hug them and kiss them. After their initial trauma subsides, they will, I believe, move on to cling to the blessings that cannot ever be stolen.
You, on the other hand, will lose everything! From this day to the end of your life, there will be none who will trust you. To be mistrusted by everyone is an enormous curse and you have brought this all upon yourself, and for what purpose? You were supposed to be the master of risk and reward and you risked everything from everyone for what reward? You have not just made a bad calculation about how money works, you have made a bad calculation about how life works. You gave no value to what matters and all value to what does not matter at all. This is what you have done.
Shame on you Bernie Madoff. Shame on you.
MY RESPONSE
Well, I say Shame on you Rabbi Marc Gellman
I certainly agree with the Rabbi that Madoff was a crook, a lier, a thief, and a white collar financial terrorist
I do not agree with the Rabbi that Madoff's religion or ethnicity has anything to do with the matter. The bigots who refer to his religion or ethnicity in conjunction with his crime are just that BIGOTS and should be ignored. Sadly Rabbi, you join the chorus of bigots when you suggest that Madoff was a "'special Jewish criminal".!!
I do not refer to criminals who are catholics as "catholic criminals", and you Rabbi should not be referring to Madoff as a Jewish criminal. He is a criminal, no better or worse than a criminal of any religion or ethnicity. Your effort to elevate his criminal status to something more evil reflects, potentially unconsciously, upon your view that Jews have some special need to be law abiding. Do gays have a special need to be less promiscuous? do blacks have a special need to avoid single parent families? do irish have a need to drink less? All of us have the responsibility to be law abiding citizens and your effots to admonish Madoff for being not just a criminal but a Jewish criminal is misplaced.
There will always be the racists and bigots out there who will play upon the negative stereotypes in our society. Rabbi, you say, " I am not comfortable with the fact that so many of the articles about you(madoff) specifically identify your prominent place in the Jewish community." Well Rabbi, your response to Madoff did exactly that.!!.
Anton
Wednesday, December 31, 2008
Thanks to those viewing my blog
Just wanted to drop a note to all those who have been visiting my blog these past few days. i will try and keep posting almost every day if I can. I will also create more links to other Atheist issues, news, and organizations so keep coming back.
Thanks
Anton
Thanks
Anton
Sunday, December 28, 2008
Anton's response to Lisa
Lisa
Thank you for your response.
You are wrong about my willingness to accept god. There are many ways in which god could convince me that he exists. If god existed and he really wanted everyone to accept him he could arrive on earth and perform miracles that would conclusively show he was real. how about stopping the earth from moving around the sun or spinning on its axis. how about changing gravity, or bringing my grandparents back or lots of things that we all could agree on were miracles. It is easy for god to show he really exists.
Instead of having a portion of people reject god outright, as i do, or have people worship all types of gods and goddesses rather than his kid jesus, he could easily have all of us basking in his glory, but, alas, he does not, why. because he does not exist of course.
The possible evidence you said you might present is quite weak. 2000 year old rumors and propaganda and extraordinary coincidences really do not amount to much evidence at all, roughly equivalent to the con man joe smith you describe and many other religions. There is no significant evidence that any god actually existed, and yet all god has to do is come down and levitate obama on jan 20 and we will all believe.
This leaves you with nothing but faith. You describe in your email what is called pascals wager. It is a good bet to believe as if there is a god since if he does exist you will go to heaven and if not then you will simply die. But if you dont believe and he exists you have eternal damnation. Yes, this is a childs game. I would reject any god, despite evidence, if he really did damn people for eternity. I mean that is pretty sick, creating people, not showing real evidence that you exist, and then damning people if they do not believe in you.
Just the fact that you mention damnation should show you what an inconsistent and cruel god you choose to believe in. Think of your family and of all the things they might do yet you would still love them, and never, ever, condemn them. Do you consider yourself more loving than your god??
Anton
Thank you for your response.
You are wrong about my willingness to accept god. There are many ways in which god could convince me that he exists. If god existed and he really wanted everyone to accept him he could arrive on earth and perform miracles that would conclusively show he was real. how about stopping the earth from moving around the sun or spinning on its axis. how about changing gravity, or bringing my grandparents back or lots of things that we all could agree on were miracles. It is easy for god to show he really exists.
Instead of having a portion of people reject god outright, as i do, or have people worship all types of gods and goddesses rather than his kid jesus, he could easily have all of us basking in his glory, but, alas, he does not, why. because he does not exist of course.
The possible evidence you said you might present is quite weak. 2000 year old rumors and propaganda and extraordinary coincidences really do not amount to much evidence at all, roughly equivalent to the con man joe smith you describe and many other religions. There is no significant evidence that any god actually existed, and yet all god has to do is come down and levitate obama on jan 20 and we will all believe.
This leaves you with nothing but faith. You describe in your email what is called pascals wager. It is a good bet to believe as if there is a god since if he does exist you will go to heaven and if not then you will simply die. But if you dont believe and he exists you have eternal damnation. Yes, this is a childs game. I would reject any god, despite evidence, if he really did damn people for eternity. I mean that is pretty sick, creating people, not showing real evidence that you exist, and then damning people if they do not believe in you.
Just the fact that you mention damnation should show you what an inconsistent and cruel god you choose to believe in. Think of your family and of all the things they might do yet you would still love them, and never, ever, condemn them. Do you consider yourself more loving than your god??
Anton
From Lisa to Anton
Anton,
Believe it or not, I understand your need for evidence. Remember, I moved to the Mecca for Mormonism. One of the issues I have with their faith is the lack of evidence because Joseph Smith based the religion on golden plates which only he saw, he translated, and then he put them back into the mountain from whence they came. Therefore, no one was able to look at them, touch them, translate them, etc. What evidence that has been found that he claimed to be ancient religious texts, per multiple experts at differing times and locations deemed to be old grocery lists.
That being said, I disagree with you on that all people blindly accept the faith of their parents, tribe, culture, etc. Obviously, many do. However, look at our families. You, for instance, do not blindly accept the faith of your parents. Your siblings and you probably have differing views on these types of subjects. Yes, my parents would call themselves Catholic, but are not necessarily active. I, for one, have one brother who I would term an agnostic. I don’t know if he would agree with that. One brother, who if asked, would probably call himself Catholic, but I do not know how much thought has been put into his faith. I have a sister who I honestly have not had a serious discussion with in years on almost any possibly inflammatory topic, especially religion. And then there is me. J I have done some soul searching at different times in life. I went to a Presbyterian college where, for the first time, I encountered prejudice against Catholicism. I ended up marrying a man who was raised very anti-Catholic. His father said, “She seems like a nice girl. Too bad you can’t marry her since she’s Catholic.” I then move to a place where almost 70% of the population is a religion different than my own. All of these times in life create a “need” for “evidence.”
The problem I see us having is this. If I present to you written historical evidence of the doctrines of my faith, you’ll say those are nice stories. If I present to you examples of the “supernatural” in my life, such as the times when I have felt an overwhelming need to pray and didn’t know why, but did it anyway, and the tree just missed the car that my best friend was in at that exact moment miles away or my brother safely landed the aircraft that almost crashed, again, hundreds of miles away at that exact moment, you would call it coincidence. If I present geographical evidence which coincides with written history, you will simply say the authors of the “nice stories” included geographical annotations to make their stories “more real.” If I say to you that the Catholic faith is the only faith which has a consistent, written, timeline from the time of Jesus, you will say, “Great. That still doesn’t prove Jesus is divine.” There is no evidence which could be presented to you which you would find acceptable because you have already “programmed” yourself to deny believing anything which could indicate a powerful being exists.
Besides all of the “evidential” reasons I believe, which you will throw out based on your belief structure, I have a KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) method of looking at life and God. I think this methodology can be applied to any religion that has a higher power. Every major religion I know has some form of the golden rule. Your flying saucer people probably wouldn’t fall into this category, but hey, I don’t count them as following a major religion. Think of a quadrant system with one axis being whether or not there is a God and the other axis as whether or not I believe in God. In one quadrant, I believe God exists and live my life accordingly AND there is a God. At the time of death, I’m likely going to be pretty happy. In the next quadrant, I believe God exists and live my life accordingly AND there is no afterlife. At the time of death, I’ll have lived a good life and then I’m done. The result is neutral. In the next quadrant, I do not believe in God and hold myself accountable to no one AND there is no God. Again, the end result is neutral, but I may not have been the best person I could have been during life. In the final quadrant, I do not believe in God and therefore do not hold myself accountable to anyone BUT there really is a God. Oops…not a great result and then I have eternity to pay for it. You may call this line of thinking childish because I have a dose of fear of punishment, but I don’t care. I think I’ll err on the side of caution.
What I think it all boils down to is this. You have a faith, whether or not you would admit it. That faith is that no one on this earth can convince you to believe in a higher power. As you stated in your e-mail, you are “just as intelligent, just as good, and just as committed” to your faith as I am to mine. However, your final statement to me, “I actually wish you success in this endeavor” tells me that as much as you cling to your faith, you don’t truly believe it in your heart. I, on the other hand, despite all of the rejection that you and others can and will throw at me, know that I have done everything I can to prove to myself that my heart is settled in the right place. I wish you success in your search.
Lisa
Believe it or not, I understand your need for evidence. Remember, I moved to the Mecca for Mormonism. One of the issues I have with their faith is the lack of evidence because Joseph Smith based the religion on golden plates which only he saw, he translated, and then he put them back into the mountain from whence they came. Therefore, no one was able to look at them, touch them, translate them, etc. What evidence that has been found that he claimed to be ancient religious texts, per multiple experts at differing times and locations deemed to be old grocery lists.
That being said, I disagree with you on that all people blindly accept the faith of their parents, tribe, culture, etc. Obviously, many do. However, look at our families. You, for instance, do not blindly accept the faith of your parents. Your siblings and you probably have differing views on these types of subjects. Yes, my parents would call themselves Catholic, but are not necessarily active. I, for one, have one brother who I would term an agnostic. I don’t know if he would agree with that. One brother, who if asked, would probably call himself Catholic, but I do not know how much thought has been put into his faith. I have a sister who I honestly have not had a serious discussion with in years on almost any possibly inflammatory topic, especially religion. And then there is me. J I have done some soul searching at different times in life. I went to a Presbyterian college where, for the first time, I encountered prejudice against Catholicism. I ended up marrying a man who was raised very anti-Catholic. His father said, “She seems like a nice girl. Too bad you can’t marry her since she’s Catholic.” I then move to a place where almost 70% of the population is a religion different than my own. All of these times in life create a “need” for “evidence.”
The problem I see us having is this. If I present to you written historical evidence of the doctrines of my faith, you’ll say those are nice stories. If I present to you examples of the “supernatural” in my life, such as the times when I have felt an overwhelming need to pray and didn’t know why, but did it anyway, and the tree just missed the car that my best friend was in at that exact moment miles away or my brother safely landed the aircraft that almost crashed, again, hundreds of miles away at that exact moment, you would call it coincidence. If I present geographical evidence which coincides with written history, you will simply say the authors of the “nice stories” included geographical annotations to make their stories “more real.” If I say to you that the Catholic faith is the only faith which has a consistent, written, timeline from the time of Jesus, you will say, “Great. That still doesn’t prove Jesus is divine.” There is no evidence which could be presented to you which you would find acceptable because you have already “programmed” yourself to deny believing anything which could indicate a powerful being exists.
Besides all of the “evidential” reasons I believe, which you will throw out based on your belief structure, I have a KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid) method of looking at life and God. I think this methodology can be applied to any religion that has a higher power. Every major religion I know has some form of the golden rule. Your flying saucer people probably wouldn’t fall into this category, but hey, I don’t count them as following a major religion. Think of a quadrant system with one axis being whether or not there is a God and the other axis as whether or not I believe in God. In one quadrant, I believe God exists and live my life accordingly AND there is a God. At the time of death, I’m likely going to be pretty happy. In the next quadrant, I believe God exists and live my life accordingly AND there is no afterlife. At the time of death, I’ll have lived a good life and then I’m done. The result is neutral. In the next quadrant, I do not believe in God and hold myself accountable to no one AND there is no God. Again, the end result is neutral, but I may not have been the best person I could have been during life. In the final quadrant, I do not believe in God and therefore do not hold myself accountable to anyone BUT there really is a God. Oops…not a great result and then I have eternity to pay for it. You may call this line of thinking childish because I have a dose of fear of punishment, but I don’t care. I think I’ll err on the side of caution.
What I think it all boils down to is this. You have a faith, whether or not you would admit it. That faith is that no one on this earth can convince you to believe in a higher power. As you stated in your e-mail, you are “just as intelligent, just as good, and just as committed” to your faith as I am to mine. However, your final statement to me, “I actually wish you success in this endeavor” tells me that as much as you cling to your faith, you don’t truly believe it in your heart. I, on the other hand, despite all of the rejection that you and others can and will throw at me, know that I have done everything I can to prove to myself that my heart is settled in the right place. I wish you success in your search.
Lisa
Thursday, December 25, 2008
Discussion on Faith with Lisa Bartel
This exchange with my cousin Lisa began after I recieved an email from her telling the story of how two people were reunited after a very long time period and that god was responsible for their reunification.
To Lisa - from Anton
Not to ruin your story as it is truly wonderful when people are reunited but can i safely assume that all the people who get seperated from their loved ones and never do get reunited, and then die wondering whatever happened to their long lost loved ones, that it is gods malevalence as he chooses not to bring them together.
simply put, you cannot thank god for reuniting loved ones, when god leaves so many other wonderful people seperated.
Anton
To Anton From Lisa
So many things to say to your response…let’s see…
1. Since those who believe in the Christian God believe he is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, they can see God’s work whether or not they are reunited with their loved ones here on Earth. Those who choose not to believe in the Christian God, such as you, are not going to see God’s work in anything.
2. If the person searching for the reunion and the missing person are both believers in the Christian God, then both should believe that they will be reunited in the heavenly kingdom whether or not they are reunited on earth.
3. The Christian God is a loving and compassionate God but that does not necessarily mean that what we believe should happen is right for us or is going to happen. As Catholic Christians, we believe we have a gift from him called free will, which you, Anton, exercise quite well in your outspokenness against him. Therefore, we can choose a path which leads us either closer to him or further away from him. He is the constant. It is we who create the dissonance, not God’s malevolence, because he has none.
4. As a Christian, we are called to give thanks for the blessings in our lives, whether it is for the reunion or the lessons we learn from separation. In all things, we are to give thanks and praise.
Merry Christmas.
Lisa
To lisa From Anton
merry christmas!!
but you still didn't answer the basic question. how do we know it is a good god reuniting people rather than an evil god keeping people apart??? and you cant answer by simply saying that you "know "god is good because someone else can simply say the opposite. without evidence what you say is worthless, actually is is worse than worthless, it is decieving.
Anton
To Anton…From Lisa
You will never know. Sad to say, but since you have not allowed yourself to have faith in anything, you will never know God is good. For that is what faith is…believing in something that cannot be proven. I know my mother loves me because I believe she does. She cannot prove it to me through words or deeds because love is an intangible thing, just like faith. You are correct in that you can say the opposite, but that brings us to the next point.
I do take exception to your statement that what I say is “worse than worthless, it is deceiving” because what I have to say has no more or less merit than what you have to say and it is no more or less deceiving than your statements. No one’s opinions or beliefs are “worse than worthless.” As a human being, we all have worth, whether or not you believe in a higher power. It always amazes me how those who profess to be so “openminded” and open to “conversing…despite our differing positions” immediately shoot down others who have chosen to have a faith in something greater than ourselves. What makes me deceiving when my chosen beliefs lead me to a life where I try, though I may not always succeed, to be caring, compassionate, considerate of others, loving, open to “conversing…despite differing positions,” and in general try to be a good person? Is it because I have chosen, through my own free will, to place some of my trust in a being that I cannot see? No, that would just make me a fool if I am not right, but it does not make me deceitful.
Lisa
To Lisa - from Anton
The person of "faith" has an obligation. That obligation is to show why they have faith and what evidence they may have for such an extraordinary claim. For example, you may have faith that jesus is divine, but without evidence your faith is like grabbing onto the blowing wind. Your faith in Jesus is equivalent to anothers faith in Allah, or Zeus, or even the folks of Heavensgate who believed a flying saucer would take them home one day. Many of those misguided people were just as intelligent, just as good, and just as committed to their faith as you are to yours.
If I was to ask a believer in each faith mentioned above to convince me of the truth of their particular faith how would they try and convince me. They would probably say things like, i had an experience, or, its always been true, or everyone i know has faith, or similar arguments. Regretfully, there is no verifiable evidence they can bring to bear because I have yet to see any such evidence shown to exist. Therefore, i would have to reject all their arguments as one was just as unlikely as another and certainly they all cannot be true as they are not complementary.
Most people of faith simply accept the faith or their parents, or their tribe, or their culture without questioning. People of faith are like children being instructed to not run into the street even though they have no concept yet of the damage a vehicle can do. We are biologically programmed to accept the ideas and commands of our parents and elders and in doing so we come to be committed followers of the family religion. This predisposition to accept what we are told when we are children can be essential for our survival but many of the things we learn as children do not go on to help us as adults.
I reject faith in anything without a reasonable amount of evidence to support that viewpoint. When a theist claims to have faith in something so extraordinary as the creator of the universe and its ongoing supernatural maintenance we should demand of that theist that they show extraordinary evidence for their claim. If their evidence does not exist or is simply "blowing in the wind" we should reject their theistic viewpoint out of hand.
Lisa, simply put. convince me with reason and evidence or be prepared to have your theistic viewpoint rejected. I actually wish you success in this endeavour,
Anton
Many Thanks to Lisa Bartel for allowing me to post her comments
To Lisa - from Anton
Not to ruin your story as it is truly wonderful when people are reunited but can i safely assume that all the people who get seperated from their loved ones and never do get reunited, and then die wondering whatever happened to their long lost loved ones, that it is gods malevalence as he chooses not to bring them together.
simply put, you cannot thank god for reuniting loved ones, when god leaves so many other wonderful people seperated.
Anton
To Anton From Lisa
So many things to say to your response…let’s see…
1. Since those who believe in the Christian God believe he is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, they can see God’s work whether or not they are reunited with their loved ones here on Earth. Those who choose not to believe in the Christian God, such as you, are not going to see God’s work in anything.
2. If the person searching for the reunion and the missing person are both believers in the Christian God, then both should believe that they will be reunited in the heavenly kingdom whether or not they are reunited on earth.
3. The Christian God is a loving and compassionate God but that does not necessarily mean that what we believe should happen is right for us or is going to happen. As Catholic Christians, we believe we have a gift from him called free will, which you, Anton, exercise quite well in your outspokenness against him. Therefore, we can choose a path which leads us either closer to him or further away from him. He is the constant. It is we who create the dissonance, not God’s malevolence, because he has none.
4. As a Christian, we are called to give thanks for the blessings in our lives, whether it is for the reunion or the lessons we learn from separation. In all things, we are to give thanks and praise.
Merry Christmas.
Lisa
To lisa From Anton
merry christmas!!
but you still didn't answer the basic question. how do we know it is a good god reuniting people rather than an evil god keeping people apart??? and you cant answer by simply saying that you "know "god is good because someone else can simply say the opposite. without evidence what you say is worthless, actually is is worse than worthless, it is decieving.
Anton
To Anton…From Lisa
You will never know. Sad to say, but since you have not allowed yourself to have faith in anything, you will never know God is good. For that is what faith is…believing in something that cannot be proven. I know my mother loves me because I believe she does. She cannot prove it to me through words or deeds because love is an intangible thing, just like faith. You are correct in that you can say the opposite, but that brings us to the next point.
I do take exception to your statement that what I say is “worse than worthless, it is deceiving” because what I have to say has no more or less merit than what you have to say and it is no more or less deceiving than your statements. No one’s opinions or beliefs are “worse than worthless.” As a human being, we all have worth, whether or not you believe in a higher power. It always amazes me how those who profess to be so “openminded” and open to “conversing…despite our differing positions” immediately shoot down others who have chosen to have a faith in something greater than ourselves. What makes me deceiving when my chosen beliefs lead me to a life where I try, though I may not always succeed, to be caring, compassionate, considerate of others, loving, open to “conversing…despite differing positions,” and in general try to be a good person? Is it because I have chosen, through my own free will, to place some of my trust in a being that I cannot see? No, that would just make me a fool if I am not right, but it does not make me deceitful.
Lisa
To Lisa - from Anton
The person of "faith" has an obligation. That obligation is to show why they have faith and what evidence they may have for such an extraordinary claim. For example, you may have faith that jesus is divine, but without evidence your faith is like grabbing onto the blowing wind. Your faith in Jesus is equivalent to anothers faith in Allah, or Zeus, or even the folks of Heavensgate who believed a flying saucer would take them home one day. Many of those misguided people were just as intelligent, just as good, and just as committed to their faith as you are to yours.
If I was to ask a believer in each faith mentioned above to convince me of the truth of their particular faith how would they try and convince me. They would probably say things like, i had an experience, or, its always been true, or everyone i know has faith, or similar arguments. Regretfully, there is no verifiable evidence they can bring to bear because I have yet to see any such evidence shown to exist. Therefore, i would have to reject all their arguments as one was just as unlikely as another and certainly they all cannot be true as they are not complementary.
Most people of faith simply accept the faith or their parents, or their tribe, or their culture without questioning. People of faith are like children being instructed to not run into the street even though they have no concept yet of the damage a vehicle can do. We are biologically programmed to accept the ideas and commands of our parents and elders and in doing so we come to be committed followers of the family religion. This predisposition to accept what we are told when we are children can be essential for our survival but many of the things we learn as children do not go on to help us as adults.
I reject faith in anything without a reasonable amount of evidence to support that viewpoint. When a theist claims to have faith in something so extraordinary as the creator of the universe and its ongoing supernatural maintenance we should demand of that theist that they show extraordinary evidence for their claim. If their evidence does not exist or is simply "blowing in the wind" we should reject their theistic viewpoint out of hand.
Lisa, simply put. convince me with reason and evidence or be prepared to have your theistic viewpoint rejected. I actually wish you success in this endeavour,
Anton
Many Thanks to Lisa Bartel for allowing me to post her comments
December 25 - a Secular Holiday
I choose to celebrate my family, both those close and far, on this secular holiday. I say secular because my celebration does not include any reference to supernatural or theistic events and beliefs.
There is nothing more important to me than the love that binds my family members together. December 25 has always been a day where that love is exhibited, grown, and celebrated. Yes, this day was chosen as a day of celebration many years ago by christians, and before them believers in mithras, and before them various pagans celebrating the solstice. For the same reason as others took this day from prior cultures I choose this day because it is an important time of the natural world and just as importantly includes the added benefit of many others already celebrating in various ways.
I would ask each person today - why are you celebrating? Yes, there will be theistic answers, but there will also be answers which center on love and bringing the family together. I suggest that most people have both reasons, but, if one had to choose between god and family the vast majority would be quick to choose FAMILY.
I know this is an inoperative hypothetical but it is instructive especially for christians. After all, wasn't it jesus who said
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. "
Luke 14:26
So I say, I love my father and mother, my wife and children, my brothers and sisters, i love my own life so I CANNOT be your disciple.!!!
Anton
There is nothing more important to me than the love that binds my family members together. December 25 has always been a day where that love is exhibited, grown, and celebrated. Yes, this day was chosen as a day of celebration many years ago by christians, and before them believers in mithras, and before them various pagans celebrating the solstice. For the same reason as others took this day from prior cultures I choose this day because it is an important time of the natural world and just as importantly includes the added benefit of many others already celebrating in various ways.
I would ask each person today - why are you celebrating? Yes, there will be theistic answers, but there will also be answers which center on love and bringing the family together. I suggest that most people have both reasons, but, if one had to choose between god and family the vast majority would be quick to choose FAMILY.
I know this is an inoperative hypothetical but it is instructive especially for christians. After all, wasn't it jesus who said
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple. "
Luke 14:26
So I say, I love my father and mother, my wife and children, my brothers and sisters, i love my own life so I CANNOT be your disciple.!!!
Anton
Tuesday, December 23, 2008
Longest Party Ever
While this years Winter Solstice/Christmas/Holiday party did not set any records for total attendance it did set the record for longest party ever.
The first folks arrived at 1130am while the last group did not leave until 1am - for a total party duration of 13.5 hours. Peak attendance was about 4pm and the total number who joined us was approximately 160.
The snowy weather certainly added to the atmosphere although the ice and sleet did keep a few people home. We will certainly expect them next year!!
Sadly the Jets lost to Seattle, but the Giants did pull out a win in overtime ( best the spread too).
thanks again to everyone who joined us and Happy New Year.
Anton
The first folks arrived at 1130am while the last group did not leave until 1am - for a total party duration of 13.5 hours. Peak attendance was about 4pm and the total number who joined us was approximately 160.
The snowy weather certainly added to the atmosphere although the ice and sleet did keep a few people home. We will certainly expect them next year!!
Sadly the Jets lost to Seattle, but the Giants did pull out a win in overtime ( best the spread too).
thanks again to everyone who joined us and Happy New Year.
Anton
Sunday, December 21, 2008
Happy Winter Solstice
Well, the big holiday party is today. How many will attend?? Will the weather hold down the numbers? We will surely see.
So, is this really a Winter solstice party or is it a christmas party, or a holiday party, or is it just Mithras birthday.??
Well our material world and consumerism has certainly turned this into the "holiday" season. Nothing specific, or offending , just the general "holiday" season.
Before that we all knew it as the "Christmas" season or just Christmas. But given that the early church fathers or as i call them "mothers" never knew when Jesus was born they decided upon Dec 25 or the birthday of the god Mithras. What better way to help the church grow.
Now, the people who worshipped mithras actually did not know either when Mithras was born so they selected a time of year coinciding with the Winter Solstice, a celestial time, as well as a time of year for awe, celebration, feasting, and renewal. Again, a promotional effort.
Now, the people before Jesus and Mithras, lets just call them good natured "environmental" pagans had always celebrated great feasts at the time of the solstice. After all, the duration of daylight was of critical importance for agriculture, calendar planning, and celestial observation. This holiday period back before "modern" religion was a truly functional event critical to the success of their society. Now, I am not saying those pagans werent religious as they were some pretty crazy folk. But, at least as far as holidays centered around the solstice go, they had the first and best case.
So to all you Mithrists, and Christians out there - find another time of year to do your thing!!!
So, is this really a Winter solstice party or is it a christmas party, or a holiday party, or is it just Mithras birthday.??
Well our material world and consumerism has certainly turned this into the "holiday" season. Nothing specific, or offending , just the general "holiday" season.
Before that we all knew it as the "Christmas" season or just Christmas. But given that the early church fathers or as i call them "mothers" never knew when Jesus was born they decided upon Dec 25 or the birthday of the god Mithras. What better way to help the church grow.
Now, the people who worshipped mithras actually did not know either when Mithras was born so they selected a time of year coinciding with the Winter Solstice, a celestial time, as well as a time of year for awe, celebration, feasting, and renewal. Again, a promotional effort.
Now, the people before Jesus and Mithras, lets just call them good natured "environmental" pagans had always celebrated great feasts at the time of the solstice. After all, the duration of daylight was of critical importance for agriculture, calendar planning, and celestial observation. This holiday period back before "modern" religion was a truly functional event critical to the success of their society. Now, I am not saying those pagans werent religious as they were some pretty crazy folk. But, at least as far as holidays centered around the solstice go, they had the first and best case.
So to all you Mithrists, and Christians out there - find another time of year to do your thing!!!
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